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Goli Yamini: and increasing Um! This is the smart health and biomedical research in the era of artificial intelligence, and at that state of science. Ah, solicitation, informational webinar. The solicitation number is Nsf. Twenty-three point six Point four.
Goli Yamini: My name is Golly Yamini, and I'm here today with Tom Harrison, Tom Martin. Sorry
Goli Yamini: from Ah, and Nsa and Dana Wolf Hughes and Yanni Wang from and Nih. Ah, would everybody like to introduce themselves?
Tom Martin: Hello, everybody. I'm, Tom Martin, I'm. Lee Goalie, and in sites at the Nsf. In Information Intelligence Systems.
Goli Yamini: It's
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Hi, everybody. I'm Dana Wilkins, I'm. A program officer at the National Cancer Institute at the National Institutes of Health. I have the pleasure of co-leading this initiative with Goalie and Tom, and formerly Wendy Nelson, for the past six or seven years now.
Goli Yamini: Thanks, Julie.
Yanli Wang: Yeah. My name is Jenny. I. I am a program officer at the National Library for Medicine of my age.
Goli Yamini: Thank you. We have some of our other colleagues here with us as well from the Nsf. Group.
Goli Yamini: I think. Um, Jim is here. If you would like to introduce yourself, and then i'll kind of go down the list of all of them.
Jim Fowler (NSF/CCF): Sure. I'm um, Jim Fowler, I am an Ipa rotator from Mississippi State University. I'm. At the National Science Foundation in the Communications and Computer Foundations Division.
Goli Yamini: Thank you. Um, As you can see. Um. Some of our colleagues at Nsf. Are from um, you know, within this working group are from all the uh participating directors and divisions. Uh, we have Stephen uh regular from Sd. Us for a long time. Julia Gel
Goli Yamini: Spangler, who's been with us in, is for a while Betty Toller from Sbe and Christopher Yang, who is also from Iis i'm going to hand things off to Dana to introduce them on his books.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Thanks fully. So. We have quite the number of individuals from Mh. They are represented currently. We have twenty-nine Institute centers and offices, and I usually assign them to this initiative so we've covered really the gamut of interest from health conditions um
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): different areas within the biomedical public health and behavioral sciences realm. I'm not going to name everyone on here, but
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): just to say it. It takes a village between the Nsf. And the Nih team. We have over one hundred people. Um program Federal employees touching this initiative, so it's quite a large initiative. Hopefully um one in which you all are taking processing as applicants or reviewers.
Goli Yamini: Thanks, Tina. Um.
Goli Yamini: So first off, let's start with what the goals of the program are, and what essentially inspired for, and Nsf and and Nih to come together for the smartphone program. It's essentially
Goli Yamini: that we see a lot of computing, engineering and math and social behavioral sciences, advancements that are transforming the world that are not reflected necessarily in addressing health.
Goli Yamini: And so the goal of this initiative in part is to try and bring some of the transformative um initiatives and advancements that we've seen in other areas to health. The applications
Goli Yamini: so well, so successful applications must uh address research gaps in uh science and engineering, and we're going to send a little bit of time about what that means
Goli Yamini: while using uh addressing the key health environmental problem. So essentially it's used by research. Uh, the May Uh. The team must include appropriate research expertise uh, in the areas that the work are, and you know we get a question often about whether you need a clinician on the team. Um, you don't necessarily need a clinician on the team. But you definitely need the appropriate expertise. Um, in order to have a
Goli Yamini: good enough team to be able to address the research problems that are of interest in this program.
Goli Yamini: Um. This is a cross-cutting program
Goli Yamini: between Nsf. And Nih. The due date is November the ninth
Goli Yamini: in two thousand and twenty three five Pm. Your local time, you
Goli Yamini: um. The project's not intuitive, integrative, and we will talk a little bit more about that. But the total cost of the award amounts. The total cost is one point two million, and that's for direct and indirect, which is three hundred thousand dollars a year for up to four years.
Goli Yamini: Um! The teams have to be interdisciplinary, and the contribution to foundational science has to be in at least two Nsf. Fields. We're going to go over this a little bit more,
Goli Yamini: as I just mentioned, Sch is a case of use-inspired basic research. I just want to ask Dana do you want to comment at all about the budget.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Yeah, thanks, Goalie. So I think what's important here for individuals who are typically applying to Nih for
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): for applications is that the as Goalie mentioned, the total cost is one point two million for up to four years, and that includes both the direct and indirect cost so a little bit different than what we typically see at the Nih. And I think that's really important, not only because
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): of the different structure, but that if you're selected for funding at a night. You're going to have to transform your budget back into the Nih form. So keep that in mind as you're putting together your applications
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): don't you go in.
Goli Yamini: Thank you. I'm actually going to hand things off to Tom.
Tom Martin: Thanks, Billy. So um
Tom Martin: like golly, said, smart health is a case of use-inspired basic research. And the slide you're seeing here is based on Donald Stokes's book pasture squadron in the Ninety S. Where he put the quest for basic understanding on one access basic research
Tom Martin: and the considerations of use applied research on another axis. And so, while the Nsf. Supports basic research like fundamental physics, which is the meal's war pattern on here. What smart health is looking for is analogous to Louis pasture who did fundamental biology research, but it was aimed at having an impact on this community.
Tom Martin: There's also the applied water represented here by Steve Jobs, who takes fundamental science and and creates applications out of science. And while that's important, it's not what we're looking for in smart health. What we're looking for is fundamental advances in science and engineering as though we said that address. Health and biomedical issues,
Tom Martin: advances that are transformative, high-risk and high reward, like past year.
Tom Martin: And so We want those advances to being computed in an information, science, engineering, math, statistics, behavioral, cognitive science, while addressing pressing questions in the biomedical and public healthcare.
Tom Martin: And we want advances that cover a research gap not just taking existing techniques and applying them to a health issue. So you should ask yourself, what are the gaps in fundamental science and engineering that have to be addressed before you can make an advance on a key health issue.
Tom Martin: This combination of making an advance in the fundamental science and engineering
Tom Martin: while addressing a key health issue is going to require appropriate research, expertise covering all the major aspects of your project. So a really common question, I think. Well, I've even seen it in the chat already is whether you need to have a clinician on machine
Tom Martin: and no, you don't have to have a clinician. Ah, but you do need the appropriate research expertise, somebody who knows the relevant research um of literature, and that could be somebody from biology or public health, for example, or for a clinical researcher next slide. No one, please.
Tom Martin: So um, if you read the current solution solicitation there's seven themes there, and we're going to discuss those over the next few slides. These themes are detailed in the solicitation, but your proposal is not limited to just these themes.
Tom Martin: Whether your idea fits into one of these things or not, we recommend talking with the Nsf. Program Director about it.
Tom Martin: Next I go There you go.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So these themes, as probably noted, are not mutually exclusive, and they're not fully expansive. We encourage you to come and present things and apply your perspective. So this is not all encompassing, but one of the themes are a fairness and trustworthiness. And really the focus here is real world considerations beyond conventional analytical approaches.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): And we're really focusing here on new directions for computational science that are fair and trustworthy for clinicians, for patients or participants.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): And what underpinning that includes things like algorithmic bias, data, fairness, new models for causality that can be developed, and new methods that can help address disparities, improve equity as well, including integration and linkages to social and economic data. Um. The ability to use and create novel methods that account for broad range of certainties in the data and the potential to a new insight into
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): and Ai systems for a clinical decision support. Next slide
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): another one of our themes is transformative analytics, and this includes different bucket areas such as fusion and analysis of multi-level and multi-scale data,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): especially in scenarios where there are either limited data, noisy data or missing this new tools and techniques for visualization and modeling of the data and behavioral contextual and multimodal data
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): that's like.
Tom Martin: So another theme is multimodal and reconfigurable sensors. And what we mean by that is, we're not looking for sensors that are just a single type, but integrated systems, that sense different types of signals, not just electrochemical, but, for instance, biochemical, magnetic, acoustic, and so on.
Tom Martin: And again in an integrated system. Next slide, please.
Tom Martin: We're also interested in cyber fiscal systems aimed at biomedical areas. So these are closed loop or human in the loop systems that combine computation, communicate
Tom Martin: and control cyber fiscal research systems. Research can cover a wide variety of fundamental topics, such as dependability, trustworthiness, high insurance, formal verification and even unconventional substrates. For example, integrate electronic and biological substrates. Next slide goalie, please.
Tom Martin: Um. Robotics is another theme, and robotics covers intelligence that's embodied in such a way that it processes information, senses, plans, and either moves or substantially alters. It moves within or substantially alters in space working environment.
Tom Martin: So we're looking for novel robotics, novel robotics that address a key health issue, such as enhancing health, improving social connection, reducing disability, you know, and not just limited to things that are common right now, like um Surgical robotics, um research issues in human robot interaction are also
Tom Martin: next I going
Goli Yamini: um. The other thing we're looking at is biomedical imaging interpretation. Um, we want to look at um image presentation, basically how human pattern recognition, visual searches, perceptual learning, attentional bias and et cetera can really affect how observers are understanding images.
Goli Yamini: Um, we really want to understand context and environment. So when you're analyzing images, when you're looking at an image, What kind of things
Goli Yamini: effective both in context and environment are we? Ah, seeing um including human environments? Um! But we also want to you to exploit these understandings um like. Can we do a better job at providing images in a way that they help um
Goli Yamini: perceptual decision making. And could this be? And you know this could be in both threed and forty.
Goli Yamini: The last thing that we're talking about, which is definitely not mutually exclusive from any of the other themes that we discussed is unpacking health disparities and health equity.
Goli Yamini: Um, for this thing we really are trying. We really are focusing on reduction, assessment and medication. Um, where you live determines your life. Expectancy as relates to social determinants of health, for example, this in that uh, not a math, and that
Goli Yamini: a map of New Orleans. Ah! With ah life expectancy noted Ah! In different geographical areas, for example, in this area, where it's an affluent ah suburb of New Orleans at life expectancy is higher in some of the lower income areas.
Goli Yamini: And um, you know this, the reduction assessment and mitigation can be done with either ah data-driven Ai models, or developing new strategies or understandings of um. How discrimination or bias affect social determinants of health and or develop ah novel methods of distinguishing basically complex pathways between
Goli Yamini: levels of influence and domain. Um, in this area.
Goli Yamini: Ooh!
Goli Yamini: We are not going to talk about the review process.
Goli Yamini: This is an Nsf. And nih joint program, and our review process is also a joint review process, and i'm going to get help from my colleagues, Tom and Dana, in kind of walking us through this pathway.
What I want to start with saying is that
Goli Yamini: the proposals coming to and Nsf. Ah, which is why we're going to emphasize later again that please make sure they're written in the Nsf. Format they're going to come into, and Nsf. Get paneled here um, and get reviewed jointly by and Nsf. Pds and Um and Nih Science review officers.
Goli Yamini: So within the review process, once the panel and the reviewers go over the proposal, the Nsfpds are going to ask them to wrap the proposal, and then the and Nihs are going to add, Ask for the scoring, and I want to have this to Dana to kind of explain that a little bit more um, and then to Tom to kind of
Goli Yamini: follow through with this part.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Thanks, Goalie. So, as Goalie said, These applications are submitted directly to Nsf.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): For this round. It'll be November ninth, Five Pm. Local. You'll submit them to Nsf. In the Nsf form Nih and is up work together to put together these joint review panels,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): which there's going to be an Msf. Pv. In the panel, and an Nih scientific review officer,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): and we'll get both scores. And then, once the scores for the Nih side uh occur. After these panels are done, we have these applications not only scored in the Nih form. They also are percentiled, and
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): the reviews that occur during this time are written in the Nsf. Format. So everything up until this point is still Nsf. Except the Nih scores and percentiles.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): It's at that time that the Nih staff meet to discuss which applications are of interest to the institutes and centers for selection to come over to Nih if that were to occur.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): What will happen is that you will receive an email from myself. Golly, Tom and others notifying you of this, and providing you instructions of how to move forward with resubmitting your application to Nih,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): you'll go through that process, submitting it. It does not get re-reviewed at that point. It just goes through the system
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): and through what we call a dummy. Panel.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Those scores that occur during the initial joint review process are released, and then everything that you would do normally from there for funding, going to council and whatnot stays the same. So
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): it's a little bit of a different process. But just know that I think really important to this is that your application will only be reviewed once, but it will receive an nsf and an nih score.
Tom Martin: Dana, you and Golie have done such a good job of that. I don't think I have anything to add to it. So I would just reiterate everyone. You will submit an Nsf proposal. It will go through a normal Ah, nsf ah review panel with an nih sro um present, and it will get us, for in addition to the normal Nsf.
Tom Martin: Uh review and and reading. So
Tom Martin: next slide, please. Um,
Goli Yamini: I just wanted to. Um say one more thing because of this joint review process and sort of the the timelines that Nih and Sf meet. Sometimes this part our funding timeline gets extended, and there is a difference between when Nsex considers a startup project, and when Nih consider, start a project. So
Goli Yamini: you know, if you want to elaborate on that, but the nih for them. When you apply here the starting would be the fall, so that's sort of when to expect
Goli Yamini: news and funding
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Yeah, or a little bit later depending So um
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): well, we'll go through this round, for example. You all will submit in November. Reviews will occur sometime in the winter, and you'll have a score.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Then we go through the process of selection and early spray, and you're if you're selected for funding at, for example, you'll go to Summer Council like June,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): July, maybe even August or May May through August you'll go through Council depending on the Institutor center in which you're going to be funded,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): depending on where you you're selected for funding at Nih you could either receive funds by the end of the fiscal year of fy twenty-four. Or, for example, if you were going to be funded by Nci, for example,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): we would not make the Award until December, so it is not uncommon to have a delay. It does not mean that you're not going to be funded when you are selected to move forward at Nih.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): It is not an official notice of a war or selection of funding, but it is um fairly likely that the that will be made. But we just want to note for you all that there is that delay that can't occur.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): And just to be in constant contact with your program officer at the Institute or center that's going to be making that award for updates.
Goli Yamini: Thank you.
Tom Martin: So um the Standard Nsf Review criteria of both intellectual merit and broader impact supply. And this page lists the elements that will be considered for both criteria, and you should consider them in the top down in order. As we've said before, smart health proposals
Tom Martin: have to make fundamental contributions in science and engineering, so that advancing knowledge and understanding within his own field or across different fields to the intellectual American, very, very important, and I can't emphasize that enough. You can't take just an existing technique and apply it to a health problem. You have to make fundamental contributions to science and engineering.
Tom Martin: Um, next slide, please totally
Tom Martin: um. The other thing is the the broader impacts the the benefits of society and advancing desired societal outcomes this isn't an exhaustive list, but it's important to keep in mind the the red bullet at the bottom.
Tom Martin: The broader impact can't just be the biomedical or health impact. It's got to be more than that. So next slide, please go.
Tom Martin: So what are the advances in in terms of the scientific environment? What are the advances in the foundational science and engineering. How novel and transformative are they? Is there a good plan for making these advances? Does the improve?
Tom Martin: Does the proposal include the right team. So look into collaboration management plan. Do they have good institutional support, and we'll talk about each of these three things in the next few slides
Tom Martin: next slide people.
Goli Yamini: So
Goli Yamini: we are going to discuss
Goli Yamini: advancements in two fundamental science and engineering areas. We refer to this a few times before that the proposals have to include at least two areas. Now, the areas that we're looking at in computer information sciences or artificial intelligence machine learning your formality, some of your pictures, and so forth. And engineering is more to moral sensors. And all the way to dynamic systems and materials uh for math and statistics. It's
Goli Yamini: like stochastic modeling uh analysis, interpretation and characterizing uncertainty. And in areas of social behavior and cognitive sciences. We're looking at perception, perception, social social psychology, cognition, emotion, economics, ethics, and linguistics.
Goli Yamini: But what I wanted to highlight here is that when we talk about two areas we don't necessarily mean that you have to have computer science and engineering for computer science and social materials, sciences or engineering and math, or any of these two. It could also be two areas within the same distance.
Goli Yamini: So it can be two different areas of computer science, like artificial intelligence and natural language technology. Or it can be something like sensors and Ai or um social psychology, and like sensing or ah, mathematical, stochastic modeling, or something like that, so it can be um either
Goli Yamini: different areas of science and engineering. And as of science and engineering. Again, when we're talking about science, we mean Nsf: science. So these disciplines are within the same discipline that two areas of focus. Those could be the two that apply. And we want to
Goli Yamini: kind of hammer this in today. This is probably one of the most important. Take home messages for us that the primary advancement has to be in these areas of science like Um Health for us is a
Goli Yamini: the century area of impact. It's a use case. It's a use case. It's not necessarily the area of advancement that we are looking at,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): and I can't jump in. There. Goal is. Yes,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): when you are putting together your teams, you, as the applicant, need to be able to articulate
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): how you're advancing the two fundamental areas. If on the team you're putting together mirrors on that. And Goalie has mentioned before you get a lot of questions of Do I need to have a clinician on this that is up to you. It needs to make sense, and you need to be able to articulate that in your application, throwing a clinician on your application, because you think that you need to, because Nih is involved. It's not going to do you well in review.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): It's actually most likely going to hurt you because it doesn't make sense to the review team. Looking at your application
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): also, as Goalie said, you need to be focused on fundamental science and engineering and the transformations and advances that are going to occur here. These are not nih applications. Health is the use case. It comes secondary to the two fundamental science and engineering approaches. We're not applying
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): technology that already exists that typically we see in. You know, some of our Nih applications. It's one of the new data linkages and methods to make that occur. What are the new advancements
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): in computer science? We're engineering, they're occurring. And then, lastly, I just want to mention to these are demonstration projects in scale.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): And so, as you're thinking about these areas and your question, it's also going to be important that you think about the scale for this program. We're not looking at randomized control trials, big sort of intervention in cohort studies. These are really demonstration projects that are advancing these two areas of science.
Goli Yamini: Thank you so much, Dana, for that clarification. Um, we're gonna come. Actually, we're gonna keep repeating this simple T uh, but one of the requirements that you guys have are collaboration plans. All proposals must include collaboration and management part, and it cannot be more than uh two pages. Um. The plan was. Describe description of the team and their roles. Here is where you talk about your clinician like Dana was saying. You're not just going to slap the person on, and you know
Goli Yamini: the roles really will have to be defined here. What everybody
Goli Yamini: is bringing to the table has to be laid out. This gets scrutinized and reviewed in panel. Uh it, it must include a plan for integration and ways to support the interdisciplinary collaboration. This is an interdisciplinary program this will be introduced in the proposals. We want to see how each aspect of the project is being incorporated into the bigger picture. And um! How that team science is happening, how that
Goli Yamini: collaboration is happening. Um! And you need to have a team member's expertise for the projects. So um as they now refer to. Uh the clinical aspects, the technical aspects you need to really balance the team. Um, and design your team based on essentially the needs of the proposed work.
Goli Yamini: Tom, Would you like to?
Tom Martin: Yeah. So um, thanks, Goalie. So all the proposals have to include a data management plan. The data management plan is up to two pages,
Tom Martin: and the data management plan has to describe how the proposal is going to conform to the Nsf. Policy on dissemination and sharing research results. So It'll cover things like the types of data you're going to collect, how you expect to share it and so forth.
Tom Martin: Um!
Tom Martin: These policies are fully described in the links that are provided here. One of those is in the Grant proposal. Guide the pap. She,
Tom Martin: if you're one of the proposals that gets selected for nih funding. You're going to be required to comply with the Nih data management sharing policy, and i'm going to turn it over to Dana to discuss that.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So I I think my biggest piece of advice here is Number one here to follow everything above this in the links. First, because reminder that you're submitting to Nsf: This is just an fyi, as I know, investigators are really
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): interested in, you know, making sure that they're complying with the new Nih data management, sharing policy.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): If your application is selected to move over to Nih, we will, in our instructions, include information about how to make sure that your application is updated to comply with this policy. The good news is that between
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): most of the policy overlaps between the two agencies there are only a couple things that are in the Nih data management and sharing policy that are not in the Nsf policy for data management. So
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): move forward. Put together your your application as you would for for Nss. But keep in mind that if you move on to Nih you'll be receiving information from us about how to update your your data management and sharing the way to comply with that policy.
Tom Martin: Thanks, Dana. So, um! The other thing is, all the proposals have to include an evaluation component. And so the evaluation can target local areas. Um, The technical functioning, the validity and reliability, the usability, the impact on biomedical and health outcomes,
Tom Martin: the evaluation should not be. And Dana said this earlier. I'm going to say it again. You should not include include a randomized clinical trial.
Tom Martin: We're talking about things that are at a much earlier stage. A randomized clinical trial is not appropriate for the evaluation it really needs to focus on. You've You've made this advance in science or engineering. How you evaluate that advance, how you demonstrate success for the fundamental research contribution that you're making
Tom Martin: Next I going?
Goli Yamini: Um, Thank you, Tom and Dana. So we have. We are just going to end things with a few final comments. Um, firstly, um! We want to highlight what proposals are not appropriate for this solicitation.
Goli Yamini: We've kind of alluded to a lot of this already, and we're going to emphasize this Again, the focus
Goli Yamini: proposals that focus only on advancing biological biomedical or public health research, with
Goli Yamini: Ah! Without a new fundamental science or engineering aspect. The the disciplines that we were just talking about without having their major thrust, the major contribution being those ah Nsf: science areas are not ah fit for the solicitation
Goli Yamini: um applications that propose basically applying existing fundamental science to the to the the medical domain like
Goli Yamini: making an app for addressing some health disparity. But that is not going to be something that is going to be reviewed. Well, here it's not a good fit if you are using Ehr data,
Goli Yamini: if you're using that for a health purpose. But the actual what you're doing with the data. The data aspect of it is not innovative. Um. The computer science aspect of it is not innovative. That is not going to be a good fit the focus on topic has to fit the mission of the agency. So if your proposal is
Goli Yamini: um, I want to give Dana and Tom a chance. If they have any other creative
Goli Yamini: project. Ideals are examples that will help clarify at this point, because we really want to make sure that this is clear for everybody.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): My name is Glee, I think, just to reiterate what you said, using, retooling, an existing method or approach for a health use case, is not?
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): It's going to suffice for this initiative. It is not a good fit. It would be a really good fit, perhaps, for Nih, but that is not something that would do well here,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): for example, um taking um something like Chat Gbt, and applying it to tech or to help with suicidal ideation or self harm that is not a good use. What are you advancing and chat? Gbt: What are you advancing in the larger area of generative Ai, and large language models? Those are the questions that are being asked, and just to sort of hammer it in
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): health is a use case here. It takes a back seat to those core Nsf: questions of intellectual merit, broader impacts, et cetera. And how are you advancing the fundamental science areas?
Tom Martin: And I really don't have anything to add that you guys have said it. Very well. I'll just say it again, like you have to make a fundamental contribution to science or engineering. You have to be able to state the intellectual merit and the broader impact. It's not going to be a set of specific aims like it is with the Nih proposal.
Tom Martin: It's going to be the intellectual merit and the broader impacts. And that's what we'll carry your proposal.
Goli Yamini: Thank you. Guys. Yeah. So if you guys didn't get it. I'm taking it for you to the third time.
Goli Yamini: So for you, if you want examples of what is appropriate, and what has been successful, at at least in the sense of balancing these disciplines.
Goli Yamini: Please use the resources available online. You can use our website. Look at uh, click on, search awards, and then when you go into search words you can type in Sdh, and then see um click on any of the grants to see sort of what are the kind of work that's been funded. Um. Some of the research focused areas have changed throughout the years, but you can at least see the sort of balance of the
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): then Nih. We have reporter and similar to what Goalie, just
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): for the Nsf. Site. If you type in under the advanced project, search in the text for Sc. In the project title, you will be able to pull up what has been funded on the Nih side. Under this initiative.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): What you will see, as I mentioned earlier, these applications, Don't undergo a second review. And so when you
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): click into any of these ah grants, actually because they've been awarded What you will see is that they're still very much so written in the Nsf. Style. Um in language. It's just been updated into the different more of fucking areas for for Nih. So I highly recommend looking at that as well.
Goli Yamini: Thank you.
Goli Yamini: So if you want feedback on your proposals, we've talked a little about what is not a good fit. We've tried to talk a lot about what is a good fit, but if you need to get feedback, please send us a one-page summary of your proposal to sc correspondence at Nsf Dot. Go. If you go to our program page or our solicitation page, you'll see that email listed also as a way to reach us.
Goli Yamini: Please don't send this to it,
Goli Yamini: and a specific aims page the one-page. Summary. The guidelines are in half G. Listed in the link below. It needs to have a description of your projects. As Tom said, the intellectual merit and the broader impacts, those need to be highlighted. We really are trying to find, if it's a good fit based on where the advancement is. So these have to be highlighted and articulated. Well, um. The only thing I want to mention the only caveat is we do have a high volume of request,
Goli Yamini: both at and Nsf. Where Tom and I are, and um ah! Some inquiries that go to and nih, although we encourage you to please send them here to us, because sometimes if you send them to Nih. They will send them to us, anyway, so just send them here. Um! There is quite a bit like there is a bit of a wait time for the turnaround time
Goli Yamini: as we're getting through these one pages. So if you want timely feedback on your request, please send it far enough in advance, So that, given the um sort of the timeline that we're looking at for getting uh responses to you guys, that our response will actually still be helpful to you. Um, In writing your puzzle, please only to last minute.
Goli Yamini: Um, that's basically
Goli Yamini: our advice. Ask for help and ask early if you can.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): How do you want to focus on applying you go to our publication Solicitation page
Goli Yamini: for Nih Institute specific interests you can follow the announcement here. Um, you can incorporate the nih-specific interest into the proposals. But it needs to be written in the Nsa format and include transformative science aspects again and again. So
Goli Yamini: you can refer to the pack. G. And again you can reach us at our email, alias for any additional questions.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So, Goalie, i'm just going to say um,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): I'd recommend for everyone to submit their one-pager early. If you don't hear back from that email, address, re ping, and for those of you who are more interested of who I talk to at Nih. My recommendation is to actually email that inbox first, with the information that Goalie
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): um put on the screen before
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): we work very closely with our Nsf. Colleagues, because these applications are submitted to Nsf. It is most important that what you are proposing meets
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): the formats and the needs of the Msf. Application to get information from there about the health context and use Case, Goalie, Tom, and others at Nsf. Will then reach out to us at Nih to see if we need to have a separate one on one meeting ahead of time.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Do not reach out to your Nih program. Officer first, as Goalie mentioned most of the time, we will still send you back to this Nsf correspondence email which ultimately will
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): make it longer in the queue for you. So just go there first, and then we'll loop around on the Nih side after you get that initial round of feedback.
Goli Yamini: Thank you.
Goli Yamini: Okay. So
Goli Yamini: consider joining our listeners.
Goli Yamini: Um, we send out information and updates on the program and opportunities that uh come up in the community uh through this Lister. Um, So just email us here and the instructions on how to join um. We also have an Nsa. A smart health uh reviewer list that if you're interested in serving on Nsf review panel for smart help. Uh, let us know, and we're always looking for your expertise to help us make. You know a registered program
Goli Yamini: makes the review process better, and we can add you to that, the surf as well. So
Goli Yamini: ah, one last note, And, Dana, if you want to close up with this one is, there is the relay between basic and applied science that we are looking at.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Yeah. So this it gets back to everything we've talked about. Um before these is program. Or this program is funding really fundamental science, and it's a hand off between that basic and apply. This means that not only do your questions be to sort of address that with health as a use case, but you also need to have the right team that you're moving forward as part of this application.
Goli Yamini: It's:
Goli Yamini: Yeah, thank you so much. Again send your questions and comments to our alias, and we are now going to move to the Q. And A. Section. We we see that there's
Goli Yamini: eighty ninety questions that have already been posted. Um and um first off I want to say that the record I mean, I'm sure a lot of them are asking about the recording from today. So i'm just going to repeat that again. This Webinar was being recorded. It will be posted on our program page.
Goli Yamini: Um, very shortly. We are also going to make the slides available for those who wanted, including captioning for the slides and for the
Goli Yamini: Webinar. All right, so let's move on to Q and A. Um that any of my colleagues wanted to start by answering any questions while we kind of look through them,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): so I can start with a few. I'll take the first couple, and then we can sort of carry out from there. So um one is kind of proposal. Have a Pd. Or P. I. And another P. I. As is the case with Nih. Yes, um, Actually, what we see with these applications is that traditionally, they're about
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): three Mpis or multiple pis. Um on an actual application it varies. Um. But Again, as we've mentioned before, about the team, you need to be able to articulate how each of those individuals are going to contribute to the
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): the actual application in the project itself, and it needs to make sense. So if you don't need to have a multi-pie team, then you probably shouldn't include that in your application.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): The second question is, will the deadline extended? The government shutdown? Um! We cannot speak to that at this moment. Right now we are open, and we have no information about what that will look like. What you can expect, and what I would encourage is to be looking at the Nsf. Site number one for for updates. Number two is joining the Lister community as only put up on one of those last slides that will be sending out information.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So right now. The The due date is November ninth. If anything were to change, you would either hear that through the lists or on the Nsf. Website
Goli Yamini: um about the cogniz and po's of who will receive the proposal. Um, it's all going to come into the sch solicitation. Id like It's going to come into one of us. Ah me! I think. And then it's going to be moved to
Goli Yamini: other program. Well, Nsf: program officers that are going to be handling the paneling for that particular topic.
Goli Yamini: Um, Dana, Is there anybody in the Ai system for brain cancer research that this would go to? Where should people?
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So you can. You can email me on the Mci and representative for this initiative? I can put you in contact with with other program staff if it's specifically about an Ai system for brain cancer research applying through this program. I'm going to tell you to reach out to the Sdh email first with the one pager. But if it is something else that would be broader than than this initiative, and applying to another program, then Don't reach out to me
Goli Yamini: as far as the clinical expertise, and Tom correct me if i'm wrong, but they can be covered by an international collaborator consultant. But there are restrictions on how that funding will work. Rule of thumb is, I think, twenty percent, was it?
Yeah, I don't think there's a published number, but the rule of time, I've been told, is twenty percent. And Dana, maybe for something that's selected on the United side is there
Tom Martin: hard and fast rule for? Is there a limit on international collaborators on the Nih side.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): There is not um, I would say, though. Um,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): there are some budgetary and other things that that apply. But I would say, if you have specific questions about that to reach out, because I think it really depends on each individual institution.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): The intricacies there, plus the fact that there's such a smaller proportion of these that are funded by. And nih. I don't know that that would be the focus. I would really focus on what Nsf. Policies are
Tom Martin: and Goalie. Can I jump back to one of your earlier questions? Sorry I was trying to find the mute button I could. Somebody was asking like which pla goes to, and things like that. I'm going to give an answer That doesn't sound like a answer to that question. Which is
Tom Martin: it? It depends a lot on your your summary like a
Tom Martin: So this summary Sorry i'm a new Ipa. I've been here since January. One of the things I didn't realize was how important all the ways the summaries get used. Once your proposal comes in. So a well-written summary will make sure that your proposal ends up with a a similar set of of proposals to be paneled with.
Goli Yamini: Yes, because that happens that transfer happens within the working group, so the better your summary is the the better informed that paneling is going to be so. Yes, yes, I second, third, fourth, that
Goli Yamini: um Is there a nice salary, cap?
Goli Yamini: There's a
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): there is, and they will apply if your application is selected for funding by Nih.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So i'm not going to speak more on that, because it really depends on whether or not you're funded by Nih. But if you are, those caps will apply. Um. The next question is about is the budget the same for nih as Nsf. And it is, and you will have to maintain the one point, two million in total costs across the length of your project,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): which, if you are selected for funding on the and Nih side is usually um a point in which you have to have some conversations with your program officer. Given the way the budget structuring is but most applications and applicants that come over, They're able to make those adjustments just fine.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): The next one is about the copi, and whether or not they're an early stage investigator under the Nih definition, which is within ten years of terminal degree, and not having a significant
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): grant, a war like an Ro one. Um! And whether or not the an award for smart health would take away the copies early stage investigator status. If you are funded through smart health, and your application is funded by Nsf.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): The Co-pi's esi status would, not be impacted because you would not have received a substantial nih. To war. If, however, you are funded, and it is funded by one of the Nih Institutes or centers, and comes over
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): that Copi would lose their early stage investigator status, because these are awarded at Nih as Ro one's
Goli Yamini: I can take next one, so how our key house is used to be fine. So There is a a notice for my age for this message program. Um over there uh different, I see. Have their um. A key. A research area is a specific specified, not defined. So you may take a close. Go
Yanli Wang: there and to see what are the key research topics, a research interest, you know, that are
Yanli Wang: a spell oft.
Yanli Wang: It's all right. I see
Goli Yamini: there's a question about the review process. Where is they? Ask if Nsf. And and I are doing joint reviews. So the actual review is done by um pis and experts in the field.
Goli Yamini: When we say it's done by and nih and and Nsf. The the Pds and the Sros are going to be managing the panel. But the reviews are going to be written by
Goli Yamini: experts in the field,
Yanli Wang: and for the question how much preliminary data analysis is expected. So the key point is that you know the preliminary data results are provided to help
Yanli Wang: uh the the review panel to properly assess the uh likelihood on feasibility of your project. Also to evaluate the capability to carry out the proposed research. Just keep that in mind, and use your own judgment to see how much data.
Tom Martin: Yeah, yeah. Only let me add to that. So you need to provide evidence that your proposal is going to be that your your plan of research is going to be successful. Preliminary data is is one form of that evidence, but it's not the only form.
Tom Martin: So you don't have to have preliminary data. There could be other ways to show the evidence that what you're proposing to do will be successful.
Goli Yamini: Um, there's a question about how it's determined. If a grant gets funded by Nsf. Or Nih, and if it can be by both or not, and the applicants get to choose, so it either gets funded by Nih or Nsf. Um. Then there's nothing that the applicant can
Goli Yamini: do to choose Um, Dana, Do you want to talk about how the Nih process works. As we explain. We pass along the scoring and the reviews, and we release them to the Pis and then to Nih, and they go from there. But if there's any information you want to add,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Yeah, so there's no selection um sort of or rights that the the applicants have to determine which agency they go to by submitting. You sort of understand that you could end up being funded by Nsf.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Funding by Nih, or not funded at all, or those are really your three three options.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): I will say that what we see with these scores and panel is that what the review criteria are for nih, and how those applications score
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): do not align all the time with what the score is from an Nsf. Perspective. And so, when we go through the selection process There isn't much fighting between Nsf and Nih about the proposals that each agency wants to fund,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): and there is a question about the reviewers in these panels, and the reviewers in the panel are those who
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): our have more of an Nsf. One. There are some with um, some health expertise, and but we increasingly, as this program has evolved since it is going into its tenth year. We now have a pretty big community of individuals who now have gone through this program, and um have worked on both the traditional Nfl side and the Mih side. And so we also have a lot of those reviewers that are in detail as well.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): We're able to bridge both of these areas and and speak to both the health application as well as the broader impacts of intellectual merit.
Goli Yamini: Um! As far as how often I I see a few ah questions about how, if this is a year? But this is a yearly program, and the solicitation right now is active for the next three years. So we just published in your solicitation so up to twenty twenty-six,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): and in terms of how many awards will be funded by the Nsf. And by Nih. That really depends on the availability of funds and the merit of the proposals that are received, and so that can vary each year. There's not a set amount or number that are funded.
Goli Yamini: Um Again, about the team. There's questions. If there should be a medical document, if, like the how your team is made up is going to influence whether you're going to be funded by Nih or Nsf. And that's irrelevant, as we,
Goli Yamini: I think we mentioned before you. The who you include on your team is really determined by your project, and especially the clinical aspect of it, and all that stuff. Um! The makeup of your team is not going to be at all important in which
Goli Yamini: who gets picked up by N. And Ms. Up the
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): There's a question about how many proposals are submitted, and that's not public information. I think that you can just
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): you can gather, there's quite a number that are submitted each year, based off of the number of directorates of Nsf. And the participation across Um nihs to centers and offices,
Goli Yamini: and again, no um clinical trials.
Goli Yamini: That was one of the questions
Goli Yamini: our support letters recommended from clinical collaborators. Um,
Goli Yamini: yes, I think collaboration letters and support letters.
Goli Yamini: Essentially, your collaboration plan needs to be solid,
Goli Yamini: and you need to have support from all the important people.
Tom Martin: But I would add to that you should look at the the
Tom Martin: that has a description of what's allowed for a support letter. It can't be. This research is going to be great. I really look forward to seeing this research. It's got to be There's an unfunding collaboration, and that's been mentioned in the proposal, and the person is saying, Yes, um, I will participate in the way that's described in the proposed.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): There's a question about should Pis only target the Msf. Evaluation criteria in writing the proposal, or if A. P. Is writing a proposal that our targets an Nih institute, should the proposal target, nih evaluation criteria,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): you are submitting your application to Nsf thus you should be targeting the Nsf. Criteria. The nih criteria are not important. Again, you are submitting your application to Nsf. And it is undergoing review at Nsf. With participation of an nih sro, and it will receive that score. But ultimately the Nsf. Criteria trumps Nih
Tom Martin: And I will add to that as well what's going to happen is the reviewers will be asked, What are the strengths and weaknesses of the intellectual, and what are the strengths and weaknesses of the broader impact amongst other things. But those will be the two lead questions in their review that they'll write. So you really should address those in your proposal.
Goli Yamini: It's
Goli Yamini: again, the Webinar will be available online, and as far as two pis from the same Institute being able to be on one application, I don't think we have anything against that.
Tom Martin: We want to see collaboration. We want to see varied um. You know all the disciplines that are important for your project to be involved. But there's no mandate on them, being from different institutes,
Goli Yamini: Henry Daysby's single-pier proposals yet.
Goli Yamini: But can they actually tell? No, It is a collaboration?
Tom Martin: Well, in theory you could have a singing if they were somehow another an expert in the house
Tom Martin: in the two areas. They were going to make the the science and engineering advances in,
Tom Martin: but in practice
that's not very likely,
Goli Yamini: right? So there's no limit or restrictions on whom you serve as A. P. I ever sort of limit the number of institutions. So
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): so here's a question for the Nsf team. What is this suggested? Proposed? Start date that they should put in their applications
these six months after the submission date
Tom Martin: A.
Tom Martin: And a couple of months. Beyond that we would probably also be good.
Goli Yamini: Yeah, but that is also something that can be changed later.
Tom Martin: Yeah. But when we get closer to the awards, it's not like you're married to that date. Um, but but we do want to see. You know it relevant. But if the word process gets delayed that start they can get
Tom Martin: Yeah. But but anything less than six months is is unrealistic.
Goli Yamini: Yeah.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Same thing. If you move over to Mih, we can modify the start date as well. So
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): another question is about the two fundamental areas within a potential bullet such as computer science, math or robotics. And Nlp. Is that allowed?
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): It? Answers gas.
Tom Martin: Yes, yes,
Goli Yamini: related. I was looking at it. I almost thought you were answering my question, but I was looking at
Goli Yamini: It was like, Can Can it one be Ai and the other area the advancement in health. No, the two areas have to be Nsf: So Ai and math, with the contribution to be made at home. So the research itself can be in help.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So there's a question about the early safe investigator status, and if that's concerned during the review process, and
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): would someone was there? Yes, I status, as I said, or if you're funded by nih you, what was your esi status in terms of the review process? It is not discussed during the review. Um about esi status. However, when applications are percentile and score the program staff do look at their respective institute or central pay lines, and they would apply the Esi pay line to those applications
that would qualify under the Esi status.
Goli Yamini: More questions on timeline. Again, proposals do we're looking at a minimum six months to a year. It may even go up to as late as December if it goes to an age
Goli Yamini: funding.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So someone asked about um the discussion on clinical trials. Um! Should there be or not be trials in a puzzle? And I think the clarification is we're talking about no randomized Uh Randomized control trials or Rcts large scale sort of interventions that you would typically see in a large Mih Ro one
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): we have seen, though based off of the Nih definition of a clinical trial. When you come over to Nih, you're
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): ah Project proposal may have components that are classified under the nih definition of a clinical trial. We are not excluding those. We are just saying that
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): these large-scale studies are not going to be one A good fit nor would you be able to do them with the budget of this program. And so we strongly
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): discourage any of that coming through again. These are supposed to be demonstration projects,
Goli Yamini: and so you probably need some preliminary data like there was a question about that, but
Goli Yamini: it would help.
Goli Yamini: So this is yeah, it is a big deal.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So how is it determined which projects move to Nih. It depends on the Nih score and percentile and alignment with Nih. I see a specific interest which are outlined in the notice that we've provided in the presentation.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): But again, just reiterate it that there is no involvement from the pis and sort of pushing either way where their application ends up,
Goli Yamini: and more questions about.
Goli Yamini: Yes, some of them will be funded by some of them will be funded by Nih, and who will decide? That is the Nih uh Institute and Centers and the Nsf side, based on the problematic consideration to start after
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): so dangerous compared to the solicitation from previous years. Um! Some of the thematic areas have changed with this solicitation. The policies and procedures have updated to be in accordance with anything that has changed in the past several years at Nsf.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): And highlighting today as well. For example, the new Nih data management and sharing plan.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): But the budget, for example, has not changed. Nor has the overall sort of theme of
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): the overall solicitation and what we're trying to achieve with this initiative and the requirements of having a health,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): you know, advancing health within two, but making two um sort of fundamental science and technology contributions. So overall the goals of the program have remained the same. But some of the specifics in the thematic areas are really would have changed.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): I will say there is a question about success of one versus multiple, and I think we've seen both the come through and have
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): a lot of multiple pi's. That's a big portion of what comes in through smart health. But we do have a lot of single pis. And in those single pi applications, though, that you do have
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): collaborators in other areas that are contributing a significant amount of time, and that is outlined in their collaboration plan as well. So it depends on how you want to structure your application.
Goli Yamini: Thank you for that clarification, Because when I was thinking, because yeah, we constantly thinking it could be
Goli Yamini: Yeah, it has to be. It depends on the collaboration
Goli Yamini: to
Goli Yamini: It's
Goli Yamini: um. And here's someone's asking, How important is it to explain how the research specifically can translate into health impact. If your health problem is not clear, it'll it'll reduce the the sort of
Goli Yamini: the impact rating of the panel of your proposal. So if you, if you're not, you don't, have a clear health
Goli Yamini: in mind that will that usually works against you. So there needs to be a
Goli Yamini: clear health, a problem that this is applying to.
Goli Yamini: But again, it has to be in the main science, this of limbs that we listed just with the impact being in health
Goli Yamini: and international collaborators, all are allowed. But there's um limitations on funding and Asf Doesn't usually like to give direct funds to international partners, and the rule of thumb is about twenty percent. So um! There's more to look into for that as far as
Goli Yamini: international partnerships
Goli Yamini: again, the two fundamental areas, one cannot be by medical science. It has to be the four disciplines that we talked about computer science, engineering, social behavioral sciences And
Goli Yamini: for Mps.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So there's a question about the academic salary for Pis and Kopi's, and that's not not normally allow from Nsf. But is permitted for for nih um. Golly, and Tom, do you want to speak to the
side of salaries? And then I can speak to the nih.
Goli Yamini: I was a little bit more experience in the salaries.
Yeah, no. Normally, it's limited to total support of up to two months
across all your nsf funding.
Tom Martin: So if you were selected for funding, then we would check to make sure that, given all your other active awards, that you didn't go above two months,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): and then on the Nih side the normal sort of salary limitations apply. And usually what happens is it's actually those
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): that allotment is a bit different. And so there is some modification that occurs not in the total cost of the budget, but the actual dollar amounts especially for salaries that occur when you make that transition over to Nih.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): If we're interested in reviewing, how do we get on the Lister that is included in the slides? Um, that that Goalie uh put up earlier. You can probably also email the uh Sch email address as well, and let them know that you're interested. I would also suggest putting in there. Um information about um, your expertise, and maybe even attaching a Cv.
Goli Yamini: That would always help. Yes, and we could um
Goli Yamini: ask you for other panels as well that are small, smart health, or health, or informatics, or something like that related. So thank and thank you for.
Goli Yamini: Thank you for those who are interested. I want to volunteer. That really makes a big difference for us.
Goli Yamini: The limit for pis and go pis on a proposal is two. I will. I can copy, paste the area into solicitation. But please go look at the the Eligibility Information section of the solicitation. Ah! For the types of organizations and a number of pis.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So there's another budgetary question about the indirect cost rate.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): I don't know, Tom, if you want to comment on that from an Nsf. Perspective,
Tom Martin: Yeah, I saw that off the top of my head. I don't know of any limits on the indirect rate. I think that's negotiated between the Federal Government and the institution,
Tom Martin: and I don't think there's a limit on the number from an institution. Either. There's just a limit on the on the pis,
Tom Martin: on the number for fi.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): What type of feedback may individuals get on their one pager? Will we say something like Don't? Send this at all, or you didn't make something clear. It's important, since the same work idea may be presented very differently in a one Pager:
Tom Martin: Yeah, So I have I've been hailing most of these. I sorry I can't speak for Golie. I have yet to send a Don't. Send this at all. I have since a few. I don't know what your intellectual merit, and your broader impacts are like you have to say what your contributions are to to two areas of science or engineering.
Tom Martin: I usually I tend to ask a lot of questions. Um. So
Goli Yamini: yeah, honestly, the one some of the only times that we say, don't send this to our semester. Nih is. But it's very clearly a health health, Oriented proposal where there really is very little computer science or any of the other science fields that we talk about, we say,
Goli Yamini: unless there is that
Goli Yamini: computer science advancements like It's not going to be a good fit. We try to be as gentle as possible about it, but the only outright nose I've had,
Goli Yamini: or that, or if it's like an institute that is not qualified to apply, or something like that. So I would really recommend. Please read the solicitation before putting in the time to write it on pager. If you
Goli Yamini: in an institute that doesn't qualify for applying or things like that.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): I've sent a number of these on over the years, and I will say I have told many that I am not able to deduce what their intellectual merit and broader impacts are, and that either the format itself is written like it's specific aims and whatnot, and that's not going
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): received at an Nsf: Well, or that um actually, even if you can deduce from that um one pager in the incorrect four that we're irrespective of that, it's still not going to be applicable to smart health. So I have seen a a bunch of those over the years, and I think, as Boy and Tom said, try to be. We try to be gentle about it. Um, from what we say. But um,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): you really need to have the intellectual merit and broader impacts.
Goli Yamini: Yeah, we bit, but we also don't want to waste your time right? We want you to be successful. So
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): there's a question here about subc contracting to industry partners so outsourcing to um a virtual reality, environment for therapeutic intervention purposes, for example. So before I I hand it to you, going in time to to fully answer this, i'll say, this is as this reads, for example, this is something where I immediately look at this and go.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): What is novel and what's smart health about this. Ah, this potential product! Ah, Project, if you already have a virtual reality, environment, and ah! In this case, if you were going to be doing a therapeutic intervention that is most likely out of scope for this. Again, these are demonstration projects. So what's novel about the virtual reality? And then the size and scale of what it is you can be proposing here. But to the actual
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): question about subcontracting the industry, Golly and Tom
Tom Martin: Dana, you gave a very good answer, because the answer is,
Tom Martin: yes,
Tom Martin: you could. You could have a subcontract industry. But the question is going to be. You know what's the contribution there, and it probably shouldn't be too big a fraction of the budget. Let's say it's not Vr. For a second. Let's say
Tom Martin: there you were doing one of the the novel. Ah cyber physical system substrates that I mentioned earlier, and you need some manufacturing to occur. You, don't have the capabilities to do that that would be a reason to do it. So
Tom Martin: So it's allowed. You're just going to have to justify it. It's going to have to make sense in the context of your research plan.
Goli Yamini: I think some of the materials like you mentioned something, Tom, about. Well, I think that's more of the University side of sort of what our eligible costs and stuff like that for some of the so i'm not going to get into that. But
Tom Martin: the true answer is Yes, and I think you guys covered everything there. Um, I wanted to touch, based on actually an important question that I just saw, and I think is important, which is about resubmission.
Goli Yamini: So the question is whether resubmission of proposals, if there's any difference between a new submission and a a resubmission, and if they have to respond to your comments from the previous run. So this is where we kind of have a storage difference between Nih and Nsf. And how we handle reviews.
Goli Yamini: The proposals that come into this program are reviewed by Nsf. Now the
Goli Yamini: we have, we have records of your previous submissions, and once the reviews are done. The um program directors bring those into consideration, and for this sort of next level assessment we consider that resubmission factor, and sometimes in some proposals people may refer to sort of like. I did this before I'm doing this from this I found this, and i'm doing this now, and sort of setting up the the project. But it is not that the same way that an age proposals,
resubmission works where
the review panel that you have. You're going to get at Nsf. Is not going to see your previous proposal.
Goli Yamini: They're not going to see the comments from the reviewers. It's not going to be like. Oh, they were told this: it is not going to be the same people. It's not going to go back to the same reviewers, so it
Goli Yamini: ninety nine point nine percent of the time
Goli Yamini: it we we probably won't even have any
Goli Yamini: reviewers in common. So it's going to be a whole new panel and a whole new Review, and although addressing some of those
Goli Yamini: reviewer comments, is going to help you, it's not going to necessarily be seen by the reviewers.
Goli Yamini: Now, when we do our reviews, and that's what we ask of our reviewers. And hopefully, when you are we were, you will be asked This as well is,
Goli Yamini: Please make it as constructive and as productive as possible. So we want you to get useful reviews you want. We want you to get and and summaries. We want you to get, you know, help in if you want to resubmit. But it's not going to have that continuity in the and Nsf. Side.
Goli Yamini: I don't know if you want to add anything Tom or Dana about,
Goli Yamini: he's
Goli Yamini: okay. Yeah, this Isn't: A: This is a Nsf: proposal Nsf: program. And those are the
Goli Yamini: review processes that are going to guide. You know all this whole decision process.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): I will say there is ah one question that I think is really important. It's about Sttr and sbir and options for those who'd be interested. Um. Unfortunately for this solicitation,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): individuals coming in through that mechanism or not, Oh, wow!
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): We're not allowed in the small businesses, for example, to apply. If you are a small business, you can apply to the normal sort of
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Sdr. A funding call for either Nsf or Nih. But in terms of whether or not the work funded by this mechanism can be commercialized. Yes, and we have seen that number of the The applicant teams that have been funded through this make it all the way through, not only commercializing, but having Fda approval and even being bought by commercial and industry as well. So there are options outside of this, and we see that this is, uh
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): this addition of being a launching point for for some of those investigative teams.
Goli Yamini: There is a question about Irb,
Goli Yamini: and I wanted to see if I could get you guys to help on answering that one, because the reason they're asking is that demonstrations are fine, and the randomized criminal trials are not in scope. But, uh, does this imply that Irb studies are out of scope, and if not, how should we think about what might be, except or what it may not be?
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Yeah, so um. Your subject is allowed under smart health. We have a number of applicant teams and funded awards that have irb sort of um
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): sort of requirements with them, and you should be prepared to to meet the the regulatory sort of statutes for your irps with this.
Goli Yamini: Yes, I I was going to say, Yeah, we will need ah updated our be approvals and stuff like that for for those that include them. But, Tom, do you want to expand on that?
Tom Martin: And I was just going to say the demonstrations can still require. I to be approved because you're using human subjects to collect the data from them. That's not necessarily the scale or randomized control
Tom Martin: trial that we have in mind like when we're talking when we're talking about those types of trials and the solicitation. What we really mean is we've already got the device ready, and you're just trying to
Tom Martin: to prove it's efficacy. Um!
Tom Martin: What's appropriate is I've you know I've got this um proposed device that I want to establish that it actually works, and you know it's feasibility. And so I need to recruit subjects for that, or I need to do some sort of experimentation on that that would be subject to I or B. But it doesn't
the level of random randomized control trial
Goli Yamini: all right. We have about five more minutes left of the a lot of time. So I wonder if anybody in our group i'm going to give time to
Goli Yamini: um others. I don't know. I think Jim left. But on me, if there's any other questions that you felt were important to to bring out for everyone.
Tom Martin: Sorry, Golie. I'm trying to scan down through the questions
Tom Martin: and get the I and I think you are too trying to get the low-hanging fruit
Tom Martin: it's.
Goli Yamini: Um! So some of the some of the questions as I'm. Just skimming through them, are are kind of project-specific and oh, i'm in this field is this appropriate? I mean that for those priests in this one pages. Please reach out to the Amy, alias Um.
Goli Yamini: I don't think a lot of them we can answer without knowing where
Goli Yamini: you know, having more context
Goli Yamini: again, our in an email. And this is Sp: correspondence at Nsf: Gov: And I think we can put that in the chat for everyone.
Yanli Wang: Yeah. Here also there is a A, you know, a a few questions relating. I seem to my issue. So people are asking or asking about, you know if the uh the application is not revealed? Well by an is there going to be like still a chance for an age to pick it up?
Yanli Wang: And then the another question. But from you know, basically the same um same concern here. So may you clarify the following process. So if the proposal will be set on it, and, I said, joined me.
Yanli Wang: Does it require that the funding proposal must meet the foundable score from both the nation and Sf. What if the proposal received the foundable score from only one of the falls, it is considering to be founded, so some I would like to clarify,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): so it doesn't need to have a fundable score from both agencies. And to be honest, when Nih looks at the scores, we are not looking at what
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): scores are Ns. And I highly doubt but I won't see for my nsf colleagues that the the same happens in in reverse. So um you again. You don't need to have a fundamental score for both both agencies will end up, I I believe, at least on the Nih. We are only looking at the
Tom Martin: right, and and what I will say is having sat in on a bunch of the panels. Is there tends to be a a good correlation between the and Nsf. Ratings and the and I Age stores, but it's not a perfect correlation, and that
Tom Martin: the easiest thing to point out is um The broader impacts matter heavily to the Nsf. Rating, but less heavily, You know, don't factor in to the Nih rating so that you can end up with differences in scores that way, so something that
Tom Martin: that's chosen for funding for the Nih might not have done that might not have been the top of the heat for the Nsf. And vice versa,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): if I if I said something there that put words in the Nih's mouth feel free to
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): you like your
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): I do see a question here, though, that I think um
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): is important, which is about limitations to the health use case, And do they have to be limited to one, or can they have multiple use cases, and I've seen both. And I think that it depends on what it is you're proposing and making sure you articulate that in your proposal. So, for example, I've seen applications come through in which
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): they are developing a device for a specific health context. It wouldn't make sense to boil the ocean and include others, whereas potentially, on the flip side of that there are novels, pipelines, data, linkage approaches, analytical methods that are being developed.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): They're using different health context and use cases through different data sets or and whatnot to demonstrate that approach. But usually, even if they are, there are multiple, there are some way, and this is not
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): all or nothing. I've seen both. But for the most part they're somewhat interrelated, like the cardiovascular aspects of
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): you,
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): mon cardinal infraction to cardiovascular related issues in Alzheimer's disease or cardiotoxicity and cancer says there is an underlying theme, even though multiple data sets are being used.
Goli Yamini: Some of them Sometimes the method can be applied to several house
Goli Yamini: problems, like, for example, in some of the imaging projects like you can develop something for imaging the brain for
Goli Yamini: so and so problem. But then it did get us expanded like it could be. The primary focus could be vision, but then it could be expanded to hearing or other array of health issues.
Goli Yamini: That sort of expansion and broader impact of the project is something that we value. So if the health area is the method that you're posing. If the advancement that you're making can contribute, we'll have to have one primary health goal that's usually those usually do better. But then, if it expands and it can be applied to other areas by all means like, let us know and say that this is expandable, and this is advancing the field
Goli Yamini: which will be applied to all these mental health areas in that sense.
Goli Yamini: So if the proposal is ah selected by Nih, do they have to rewrite the proposal for Nhs guidelines. There's going to be a little bit of that. But can you?
Goli Yamini: They explain that Dana or Young?
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): So there's uh some modifications that have to happen, but generally the content um of what's being proposed is is not really modified.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): It's just filling into the new new areas and then modifying the budgets. I wouldn't worry as much about that. You will get very detailed instructions from Nih and Nsf. If your application moves forward that i'll help you move through that process,
Yanli Wang: and sometimes people ask about the page image, and so I mean, correct me if i'm wrong in that. So here. We try to be generous, so only it requires your rate requires in five page as the limit. However, if you know for this proposal, if it's a fifteen times we will take it
Yanli Wang: without asking Pi to
Yanli Wang: the of the people
Yanli Wang: on research strategy.
Goli Yamini: We are past four thirty now, so in case I don't want people who had questions that you know they only I mean,
Goli Yamini: I don't want people to miss the answers to the question. So I kind of want to stop things right now and um encourage everyone if you have. If your question Wasn't answered, If you have additional questions, reach us at our ah email at Ni and and himself.
Goli Yamini: Um, and I wanted to take this time to thank everybody. Thank my colleagues, Tom and Dana and Yali, David Ria Um and Jim and our and Nsf. Ah. Coordinators that are helping those drivers. So thank you all so much. Um!
Goli Yamini: Good luck with the proposals. Everyone happy reading.
Goli Yamini: Um, and we will hear from you in the in our email in our inbox.
Dana Wolff Hughes (NIH/NCI): Thanks, everybody.
Tom Martin: But
Yanli Wang: thank you. Everyone.