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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Ahead and get us started. Do you want to let folks know that this meeting is being recorded?

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And I want to say, welcome to everyone. Good afternoon. And for those of you who are out West even.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Good morning. Still for some of you. And welcome to a very special virtual office hour that is hosted by the directorate for biological sciences.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: This virtual office hour is going to be focused on updates from the newest proposal and award policies and procedures guide specifically changes that coalesce around research that might be occurring on our tribal nations, lands or impacting people or resources

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: there. So if you are not a biologist and not in a biology department, and don't normally submit to the biology directorate. Do not panic because this is broader than just biology.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: I do. Wanna note that as you formulate questions, we would like you to use the Zoom. QA. Box that you'll see at the bottom of your zoom screen? We will be reading some of these questions out loud and answering them out loud in a little bit. Some of them we may be answering via a type written response in the Zoom. QA. So just keep an eye on that function

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: next slide, Jennifer.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: So my name is Jodi J. War. I am a program officer in the biology directorate Jennifer Visowski and Jared Dash off have been my administrative support and technical assistance. They're also from the biology directorate. I'm joined by Caroline Blanco and Germalina Tupas. I'll do a little bit more introduction of them here in the next slide. Gene Feldman could not be with us today. Unfortunately.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: next slide Jennifer.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: So Caroline and Jermalina are both part of the tribal consultation and engagement working group.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: They are, were instrumental in

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: putting together the changes that will be outlined today. Caroline Blanco is the assistant general counsel on environmental matters. Tribal liaison in the Federal Preservation officer in the office of the director and office of the general Counsel.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Jeremelina Tupas is a senior advisor in the Directorate for stem education and the division of equity for excellence in stem

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: and gene. Feldman, who could not be with us today, is the head of the policy office. So all 3 were instrumental in helping put things together. And I'm gonna turn this over, I think to Caroline, you're gonna be starting us off to start sharing some information Caroline and Jermalina. I am gonna drop links like the newest PA. Ppg, make sure everyone's got that into the zoom. Not the QA. But the chat, so don't be thrown off when you see those things pop up.

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Caroline Blanco: Great. Thank you so much, Jodi. And next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: And 1st of all, we want to say, thank you so much for having us. This is really terrific, that there's an interest to have a speak on this, and hopefully to engage in in Q. A's as well.

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Caroline Blanco: So 1st of all, thought we would start with talking about tribal nations and indigenous communities. There are a couple of facts that folks may not be aware of there are 574 federally recognized American, Indian, and Alaskan, native tribal nations.

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Caroline Blanco: and when we refer to tribal nations, these are the 574 federally recognized ones. They can be referred to in a number of ways, and you can see in the slide. The 1st bullet point has a a multitude of ways to refer to them. Their leaders can be

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Caroline Blanco: put in those positions in a variety of of ways, and they could be elected. Some are there due to heredity, and and so forth, and they can be referred to in a number of ways. As well, like chief or chairperson, etc.

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Caroline Blanco: Importantly, each one of these federally recognized tribal nations are ethnically, culturally, linguistically diverse.

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Caroline Blanco: They are sovereign nations and need to be treated as such. And a fun fact, I think, is that 229 of the 574 are in Alaska.

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Caroline Blanco: so they take up quite a bit of real estate there.

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Caroline Blanco: And there are also other non federally recognized, indigenous communities, such as the native wine community, and the American Samoas, Chamoros, and so forth.

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Caroline Blanco: These are our tribes that could also be recognized by their State government governments, but not recognized by the Federal Government. So this is the path. G, information that we'll be sharing with you. Does not apply to non-federally recognized indigenous communities. It only applies to tribal nations, that is, the ones that are federally recognized. Next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: One of the things that I had just mentioned. With regard to the tribal nations, the federally recognized ones is that they are individual, sovereign nations. So if you can think of it as you know they're France, or their Canada or the Uk. These are sovereign entities. And so it's it's really important that we don't just lump all tribal nations into one. And

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Caroline Blanco: think that they are identical. They're not. They're very unique, different languages, specific cultures and traditions, and so forth.

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Caroline Blanco: One of the things to keep in mind when dealing with tribal nations is that early consultation and engagement is really the key.

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Caroline Blanco: People don't want to be caught off guard. And remember that they are. This relationship between the Federal government and tribal nations is one that has

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Caroline Blanco: quite a a difficult history. So trust is a big concern there, and early consultation and engagement is a way of trying to overcome some of that, and to start to bring down some of the barriers between

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Caroline Blanco: and recognizing also the timelines may be very different. It could be on a completely different wavelength. Just because we say we need something in 2 weeks doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to tribal nations.

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Caroline Blanco: And as I mentioned that establishing trust is really important, and you can do that through transparency.

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Caroline Blanco: and that your credibility is everything when dealing with with tribal nations? Just as it would be with anybody. So that is especially true, though with tribal nations.

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Caroline Blanco: So it's important to observe their uniqueness, and that means their cultural norms. How they do things and introductions are very important. You wouldn't just say what your title is, you would say, where you come from, and what is important to you, and different things like that. They want to know who the person is. They don't want to know who the title is.

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Caroline Blanco: Next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: So just in some on this, again, tribal nations are sovereign entities, and by law there's a government to government relationship with the Federal Government, and that is is pretty key for some of what we'll be talking about in a moment.

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Caroline Blanco: And again, it's important to be culturally aware

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Caroline Blanco: and respect their particular unique practices and perspectives when dealing with indigenous communities. And that is true for both federally recognized and non-federally recognized indigenous communities.

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Caroline Blanco: So the Pathg provision that we'll be talking about is it's a new provision that came into effect on May 20th of this year.

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Caroline Blanco: And it basically focuses on the proposer being required to obtain tribal nature, nation approval for any proposed project that could affect tribal interests or resources, and that if the tribe says yes, you do need to obtain our approval.

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Caroline Blanco: and it's being recommended for award.

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Caroline Blanco: It's important to note that Nsf. Funding will not be awarded unless that approval is obtained first.st

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Caroline Blanco: Next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: Thank you. So now we'll get into some of the the nuts and bolts of the new Pathg provision.

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Caroline Blanco: Again. This only applies to federally recognized tribes, and which we call tribal nations, and they they won't be awarded Nsf funding without the prior written approval

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Caroline Blanco: from the officials designated by the relevant tribal nation. So it could be the chairperson. It could be the head of the Department of Natural Resources, whoever they deem to be the appropriate person to issue that approval, or to tell the proposer that you don't need our approval. But again, that has to be in writing.

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Caroline Blanco: and for purposes of this provision it is important to look at what this is limited to. These are resources or interests of a tribal nation that could be impacted.

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Caroline Blanco: And so it's limited to tribal lands. We because it's a little bit tricky to include waters and how far out. And there's a lot of shared jurisdiction when it comes to waters we didn't include that in the Papg language at this time.

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Caroline Blanco: so it's just lands or resources on the lands, or something that is unique to that tribal nation which we refer to as the domain of that tribal nation, and it could be tribal languages or subsistence rights on lands and and so forth, something that is really unique to that tribal nation. And if you think about it, the main purpose behind this is that

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Caroline Blanco: the tribe speaks for those things that are uniquely the tribes, not somebody else. So that's what the purpose is behind the requirement of permission.

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Caroline Blanco: Next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: So, looking at, how does this work, the proposers have to 1st seek the guidance from that potentially impacted tribal nation regarding whether the activities in the proposal

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Caroline Blanco: may require review or approval from that designated person who's the authorized official of the tribal nation. And again, it it could be different from one tribe to the to the next, and it very well may may be different.

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Caroline Blanco: So, based on the guidance that's received, they are to submit a written request to the relevant tribal nation. And it could be multiple tribal nations

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Caroline Blanco: for their approval to carry out the proposed activities that that requires that approval. Next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: And the way this goes in terms of submitting proposals is that there is a checkbox on the cover sheet, and it's entitled Potential Impacts on Tribal Nations. So when that checkbox is checked, then the proposer has to include at least one of the following.

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Caroline Blanco: it has to at least require the a copy of the written request

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Caroline Blanco: that was made to the tribal nation to carry out the proposed activity. That at least gets it started, and because we know that the timelines may be different, and it may take a little bit more time. We're fine with starting the the proposal review process with just the written request itself.

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Caroline Blanco: Then what'll happen is one of 2 things. Either the tribal nation will come back and say that

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Caroline Blanco: you know they've reviewed it, and and there's no need for for approval that that's required for that particular proposed activity. And if so, there needs to be written confirmation that the proposer obtains to be able to submit that

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Caroline Blanco: as well into their proposal along with their proposal

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Caroline Blanco: or and the alternative, a copy of the document that has the requisite approval. So again, that's a written document that we're going to be required. So this documentation has to be uploaded into the other supplementary documents in research.gov dot

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Caroline Blanco: so, and it has to be either number 2, which is the the written confirmation that no approvals necessary, or the d. 3, which is a copy of that approval. One of the 2 of them has to be in the supplementary documents before Nsf. Will make a decision on an award

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Caroline Blanco: next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: So let's take a look at some examples that could require review and approval from a tribal nation.

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Caroline Blanco: So these could be researcher projects that involve tribal nation members

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Caroline Blanco: and would invoke the tribal nation in any way.

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Caroline Blanco: So again, the concept of you don't want to be speaking for the tribal nation on matters that concern the tribal tribal nations. What we heard in our tribal consultation and engagement working group that Germalina and I collide is

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Caroline Blanco: nothing about us without us. So for years, what had happened is that we heard during our listening sessions that we conducted, that tribes were being, or there were reports and publications that had discussed particular aspects of tribal nations that were never submitted to them

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Caroline Blanco: for approval or review or anything. So then those publications went into the public domain, and then other publications were generated, based on the initial ones. And so the narrative about the tribal nation was out there without any input at all from the tribal nation. So this is what it's trying to address this new policy.

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Caroline Blanco: So this would also, importantly, when looking at the type of of a proposal that would require a separate or or this type of proposal. I shouldn't mention it. Germany will go into this more in a few moments, that it may also require a separate tribal irb

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Caroline Blanco: or other mechanism that may be already in place to review the proposed research. But that's that's in addition, that's not in place of or in lieu of, and but, importantly, this would exclude cases where tribal nation members

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Caroline Blanco: voluntarily participate in the proposed research, but they would be doing so as individuals, not as representing the tribal nation.

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Caroline Blanco: Another example of this, of what would come into this aspect of the Pabgi, or this provision of it, is that studies or research conducted on tribal nation reservations or territories, or elsewhere, where there are legally protected rights or resources to engage in activities

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Caroline Blanco: and also tribal nation controlled information or data and research. If that is to be used, then approval will need to be obtained 1st or written documentation that no such repro approval is needed.

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Caroline Blanco: Next slide, please

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Caroline Blanco: again, just wanted to draw your attention to this checkbox for potential impacts on tribal nations. That's on the cover sheet

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Caroline Blanco: next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: So if the box is not checked, there could still be situations where the need for tribal nation review and approval might be required.

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Caroline Blanco: So let's say, the box is not checked. But then, during the review, the merit review process, panel reviewers point out that. Hmm, this looks like it. It's gonna involve tribal nation interests or resources. And so it's brought to their attention

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Caroline Blanco: or the tribal nation. Interest and resources are are indicated in the documentation supplied by the proposer. So in either of those cases it would be up to the program officer to request that the proposer go ahead and provide the required documentation.

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Caroline Blanco: and inform them that unless that documentation is there, that there will be no funding for Nf. For by Nsf

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Caroline Blanco: next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: So what again, this this approval needs to be secured from the official that has been designated by the tribal nation to provide that approval, and it could be from the tribal council or tribal leader, or it could be from somebody delegated to have that authority such as I mentioned before, the natural resources director or somebody akin to that person.

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Caroline Blanco: So participation in and support for the research by a tribal nation, member or citizen or organization does not qualify as approval. They have to have that designated authority. From the tribal government itself. We run into situations in the past, where it would be a tribal elder that said, Oh, this is fine, and they go forward with the research. And then the tribal council has found out about that, and is very upset and has contacted us.

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Caroline Blanco: and then we'd have to work out some sort of arrangement where that that problem was resolved.

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Caroline Blanco: Next slide, please.

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Caroline Blanco: I'm going to turn this over now to Germalina.

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Jermelina Tupas: Thank you, Caroline, and good afternoon, everyone.

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Jermelina Tupas: So I'm going to go to the Travel Review boards that this is in addition to the requirement of the path. G. That anytime that you work with tribal nations and will have use of human subjects and vertebrate animals. This will have to go through a travel, research, review, authority.

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Jermelina Tupas: and the use of vertebrate animals, especially when working within the reservations or legal domains of travel nations. What do those legal domains mean. These are the legally protected areas where subsistence hunting are only allowed for a particular tribe take place, so they may also require review by a travel, research authority.

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Jermelina Tupas: So in addition to this tribal research authority, they also reviewed the use of tribal knowledge and cultural properties. So although those last 2 items will go under the approval required in the Papg. The other 2, the use of vertebrate animals and human subjects will require separate review by this tribal research boards. So please note

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Jermelina Tupas: that

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Jermelina Tupas: the revised common rule for protection of human subjects acknowledges tribal nations authority over research. Review, so that if you have a project that has received

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Jermelina Tupas: approval or exception from a non Tribal Review board like your Institutional Review Board, the Tribal Nation Review may supersede that

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Jermelina Tupas: that ruling and may disallow a project's approval. So it's very important that whenever you involve

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Jermelina Tupas: tribal citizens as part of your human subjects, that you need a separate tribal irb approval, for that.

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Jermelina Tupas: In the next slide.

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Jermelina Tupas: Next slide, please, you will see that there are different ways by which tribal nations can actually con do human subjects review as well as other

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Jermelina Tupas: relevant travel entities that would go under the Review board

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Jermelina Tupas: in this case for tribal Ir, there are 4 different ways where Irbs can be handled. It's either through the tribal nation, Irb itself so tribal nation. Usually when it's a large tribal nation, they have a separate research department that would do this. So you can go into their website and check if they have their own tribal Irb.

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Jermelina Tupas: if they don't have their own tribal irb. Some of them would go through the tribal colleges and universities. Irb.

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Jermelina Tupas: So many of many tribes have chartered tribal colleges and universities, and they do use their irb so that anything that would require the use of human subjects will go through this tribal college. Irb.

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Jermelina Tupas: Another way is through a tribally based or focused organization or department.

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Jermelina Tupas: And, for example, the National Congress of American Indians may have that kind of ability to review the research. Also, the tribal nations.

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Jermelina Tupas: research group in Turtle Mountain, for example, they do have that ability to review any

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Jermelina Tupas: use of human subjects or animal vertebrate animal. So you may have to check that one whenever you are looking for which

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Jermelina Tupas: Irb, will you use for your work?

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Jermelina Tupas: And lastly, the Engine health Service, because they're distributed all over the country. There are 12 regions for this. Some of the tribes also make use of the engine Health Service, Irb or review port.

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Jermelina Tupas: so in the next slide.

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Jermelina Tupas: I just want to summarize some of the misconceptions that people have when it comes to

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Jermelina Tupas: IRB.

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Jermelina Tupas: Or other reviews that the tribes may implement.

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Jermelina Tupas: Some people think that if I have irb approval from my institution I can go ahead with the project.

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Jermelina Tupas: Nope, if you are involving

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Jermelina Tupas: tribal citizens

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Jermelina Tupas: and tribal communities in your studies, you need to get that tribal irb approval, not just your institution's approval.

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Jermelina Tupas: So I'm not working on a reservation. I do not need tribal Nation Review.

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Jermelina Tupas: Yes, you do. If you're working in areas that are legal domains of those tribal nations.

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Jermelina Tupas: And also if you're using animal subjects that are actually within the domains of the tribal nations.

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Jermelina Tupas: Well, there is an indigenous representative on my Irb, so that counts as tribal nation review. No, it doesn't, because a tribal irb is different from being having an indigenous representative.

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Jermelina Tupas: So it has to be approved by your tribal nation. Irb.

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Jermelina Tupas: a travel member is on the research team. So I do not need tribal nation review. Yes, you do. If you're

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Jermelina Tupas: your research will impact

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Jermelina Tupas: travel, resources and interest, you still have to go through a designated reviewer.

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Jermelina Tupas: and

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Jermelina Tupas: the tribal nation involved in my research does not have an irb, so no approval is necessary. Take note that there are 4 different ways by which tribal nations can actually employ a Review board. So please make sure that when you have a particular tribe in mind that you can check what kind of review board they usually employ.

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Jermelina Tupas: My Irb does not consider this activity to be research. So I do not need tribal nation review

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Jermelina Tupas: any project that requires the participation of tribal nation. Citizens will require approval, whether they're human subjects or not. It will require approval from the tribal nation.

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Jermelina Tupas: and lastly.

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Jermelina Tupas: I followed the approval protocol, so I can publish whenever and wherever I want.

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Jermelina Tupas: That's not true, especially if you made

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Jermelina Tupas: an agreement with the tribal nation. Remember, this is one of the ways to protect them from extracting knowledge from them. They want to make sure that what is being published is representative of their tribal nation, and you can just publish because you followed your institutional protocol

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Jermelina Tupas: next slide, please.

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Jermelina Tupas: So I know you have a lot of questions. So this is the end of our shared presentation. But while you're forming your questions, I'd like to go to the next slide

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Jermelina Tupas: next slide, please. As you can see, we do have a website that may surface a resource for you.

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Jermelina Tupas: And you can see that website. And if you have other questions that we couldn't cover now or later on. If you need more clarification, please email us

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Jermelina Tupas: at travel that engagement

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Jermelina Tupas: at nsf.gov.

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Jermelina Tupas: thank you.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And I went ahead. And I put the website and that email into the Zoom chat for folks to more readily and easily grab.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And let's go ahead and and turn to some questions. And, Caroline, I know you're you're typing a answer here, but I thought maybe I'd read the question aloud for everyone. We've got time, and then maybe you could just, you know.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: tell folks what what what you were getting ready to answer. Here we may go back and pick up a couple of the answered ones just in case folks missed that typed out answer. So we have a question that says,

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Given the acknowledgment that genuine engagement with tribal nations takes more time.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Has there been any thought given to lengthening the minimum allowed time between posting an opportunity and the due date for that opportunity. We have found this to be an equity issue in that short deadlines can prohibit tribal participation.

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah, that's in a really excellent point. And you know, a couple of things come to mind in in answering that, I think

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Caroline Blanco: you know, this is our focus on the tribal consultation and engagement working group has been on developing this policy, and of course we had to and and wanted to, you know, present it to the different directorates and talk about it. And there is this concern about just in general about how long it might end up taking to get the

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Caroline Blanco: the approval. So one of we know that there are going to be bumps along the road in implementing this. And one of those bumps that's very foreseeable is that it's going to take time for institutions and researchers to develop those relationships with tribal nations that they might interact with.

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Caroline Blanco: And so with time, that timeline is probably going to get reduced likewise on the Nsf side. It's a culture change for us as well. And so hopefully, this will be recognized as an issue within each directorate and more, you know, timelines might be more enhanced, as

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Caroline Blanco: people become aware of these issues, this isn't necessarily within the ambit of our our working group, but it is something that is an important issue that you've raised, and we hope that that's the case. And I can tell you from some experience

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Caroline Blanco: in dealing, not with the patchy provision itself, but an analogous one. I've been in several situations where it's taken an indigenous community, for example, in Hawaii to take longer to, you know, work with us and us work with them to try to get a a mutually agreeable result, and as a result, the the division director, has extended time.

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Caroline Blanco: In which the award can could be made. So it's more like a 1 1 off situation and case by case. But I don't know, Jermalina. Did you want to add anything to that.

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Jermelina Tupas: No, just to emphasize Caroline, that during the the application process, all they need to show is that they have reached out to the tribal nation that they're in. They're gonna be working with, to say, pending approval

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Jermelina Tupas: and or approval not needed. But they will.

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Jermelina Tupas: It's almost like a just in time. Kind of document you present that if you are going to have your

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Jermelina Tupas: proposal going to be funded.

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Jermelina Tupas: so

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Jermelina Tupas: it does give you some time while you're putting in your proposal, you can still work on continuing to work with your tribes to get that approval.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: We have a question that's kinda asking more questions about a question. So let's start with the beginning of this series where the question came in asking will proposals that were due prior to this update. And I believe they are referring to the updated

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: PPA. Ppg, and the new requirements with tribal nations will proposals that were due prior to this update, but funded after the update. So funding came into effect after 24 one came out, be asked to go through this process and request approval. So Caroline.

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah, it was it. It only applies to proposals submitted

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Caroline Blanco: after on or after May 20th of this year.

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Caroline Blanco: even if the proposal was pending on May 22,024. That's not the the universe of

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Caroline Blanco: proposals we're talking about. It's only when a proposal is submitted. That's the key timeframe. And in the answer to that question the initial one. I also said that being said, it is really important to work on developing those relationships because it's going to help you down the line.

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Caroline Blanco: It could be, you know, that. I mean, we've heard during our listening sessions that tribes were not happy about not being included and not knowing about what was going on. So it is important to try to reach out, regardless of when the Papg provision came into effect.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Thank you. A very good question here about reviewers and review process. The asker is inquiring, will Nsf. Reviewers be trained in appropriate ways of approaching the question of whether there is an impact on tribal nations in their review.

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Caroline Blanco: We have not discussed that we're providing training for program officers.

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Caroline Blanco: And it it could be that. I mean.

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Caroline Blanco: we are hoping that we are going to have more indigenous reviewers that will take a look at things. And that's 1 of our efforts right now that we're trying to increase that pool of reviewers.

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Caroline Blanco: But what we are doing is on the program officer side. We are. We've offered training twice already in May on this provision. And I believe it's recorded so folks could take a look at it again. Pretty sure. But, Germalina, did you want to add anything to that?

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Jermelina Tupas: Yeah, that's about what we have been doing with with the different directorates also, attending some of the meetings so they can. There. This is basically more focus internally. So once we have our internal outreach will be doing external outreach and see how the different pi communities as well as the viewers, could really see how we should be doing this. Reviews of

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Jermelina Tupas: proposals that involve tribal nations.

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah, we are just to tag onto that. We are doing a lot of outreach

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Caroline Blanco: with tribal or conferences where tribal nations would be widely attend would be widely attending it. And so we've let people. Now we've tried to pass the word around that this new provision is there? So we're raising awareness. It's going to take time.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And I can't say the training that they've done for people inside Nsf. Is very good. I've attended it, which

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: motivated me to try and put together this virtual office hour so that we could start letting our communities know about this very important change.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: We have a question here that

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: this this might be a little bit more on the internal training side of something to think about. The asker is inquiring, do we check the Tribal Nations leaders list

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: to ensure that the letter that we receive has come from the appropriate person

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: so.

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Caroline Blanco: Instrument.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Check. Who does someone check. And that's a very good question.

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Caroline Blanco: So this is really, you know, in a very interesting question, because we really dealt with this quite a bit internally. And then what happened is that we really needed to try to do some thinking about

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Caroline Blanco: how we were going to handle this. And and really

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Caroline Blanco: we concluded that we are not going to be the police on this.

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Caroline Blanco: and it's going to be too difficult for program officers to have to go by and check over and over again to see. Is this the right person? Is this actual authority? Did that person have? And so forth? And so the Tribal leaders list is available, and it's in the chat. I think maybe we had put that, and that's helpful as a backup. But basically, what we'll be doing is we'll be having

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Caroline Blanco: you know the letter hopefully. It has letterhead on it

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Caroline Blanco: in a signature block there, and we're going to assume just like we do with everything else. We're going to assume that unless we hear otherwise, that what is being submitted is proper and has the appropriate authority, unless something else has come to our attention.

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Jermelina Tupas: So what I want to add to that is that the honors is on the proposer.

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Jermelina Tupas: And if you submit something that was not really from that designated authority, and someone from the tribe or the tribal nation would complain. They would reach out to Nsf and say, Hey, we didn't approve this, etc. Your project can get halted

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Jermelina Tupas: until we can resolve the situation. So we do want everyone to make sure that they are reaching out to the correct person or the designated authority for this, because it will be an issue in the future, where, whether you can continue the work or not, and

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Jermelina Tupas: in that situation, usually, Caroline, as our tribal lay side, will be the one negotiating with the tribe. And if that's going to be too much work, because too many people did not follow the instructions, and everything like that. You may be in a long list of, you know. Because Caroline is the only one who's doing that negotiation with tribal nations. Unless we have more people who get to that, the process can slow down.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: linked, I think, a little bit to the idea of are people checking, or the appropriate person? There's a question here about Will Nsf. Provide a template for the written request. Some maybe, like the letters of collaboration template that we have in the PA. Pg, or are there? I'm adding to the question, sorry, ask her, or you know what are the requirements? Again, that you might like Caroline, I heard you mentioned

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: ideally, letterhead, a signature block.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: What would the

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: what would we Nsf. Want to see in the documents that come to us, saying, yes.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: an authority, and the tribal nation knows and approves. Here's the the signatory in terms of

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: how do you, the pi ask

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: the appropriate authorities for approval. I don't think we'll tell you how to do that. But, Caroline, I'm going to let you weigh in.

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah, I mean it. It's so interesting to see these questions come up and and recognize they are the same questions we, you know, deliberated over internally when coming up with this language.

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Caroline Blanco: And what we decide this, this is one of those questions. That we had talked about quite a bit, and where we landed on this was that

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Caroline Blanco: even though we saw the value of providing a template.

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Caroline Blanco: we recognize that, as I said, at the very beginning of the presentation, 574 federally recognized tribal nations, and each is an independent sovereign, and they're going to have their own ways of doing things, and we need to respect that.

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Caroline Blanco: And it. You know, we're trying to change the way that the Federal Government has done things in the past. We don't wanna prescribe for folks what they should do. All we're saying is that you know it. It.

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Caroline Blanco: It would be helpful as an example not required if it was on letterhead, or if there was a signature block that indicated where they were from

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Caroline Blanco: the program officer. If it looks a little sketchy or something. Not quite. They're not comfortable with it. They can always reach out to the tribal nation. And that's 1 of the purposes of that tribal leader list

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Caroline Blanco: so they could do that and say, I've received this is this the authorized individual who, you know, if there's a question.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Alright. Move that to the answered category. So how will Nsf assess if the approval process is, in fact, aligned with tribal requirements?

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Caroline Blanco: We're not going to second guess again. This is just sort of looking at it as a different mindset, and just saying, if the tribe has tribal nation has provided a written

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Caroline Blanco: document that says they approve.

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Caroline Blanco: we're going to take it at face value

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Caroline Blanco: again unless we hear otherwise.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: This. This is an interesting one.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: The asker notes one addition that they would suggest is to be sure, to highlight the need for the data management plan to be negotiated with a tribe as a critical part of the Grant proposal.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: So it's more of a statement. But did you want. I didn't know if that was something either of you wanted to speak to.

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah, I I'll start out. And then I'm I'm curious to see what Germana thinks. But I know one of the

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Caroline Blanco: the big issues that we're starting to look at pretty closely now is

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Caroline Blanco: data sovereignty and how to deal with that. And looking at also because tribes frequently will think this is theirs. This is their intellectual property, and it is for them to decide what happens to it. So it is a very interesting point to say, maybe we should highlight that as being a requirement.

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Caroline Blanco: But this is something we're that's in development for us, as far as trying to figure out how best to manage data management. So what ideas we might have for changing policy in the future. But Jermalina.

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Jermelina Tupas: Yes, take note, though, that when you have your proposal, and you're working with the tribal nation, that they will look at this and say, how are you going to store the data? What kind of data are you gonna use? Where are you? Gonna how can we access that?

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Jermelina Tupas: So if they really know what they're they're working with, you know. That's gonna be part of the data management plan to be included there because you have to say if you are in much the same way that you're anonymizing any human subjects

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Jermelina Tupas: and you want included. That would be part of your data management plan. You're also going to have to say we have tribal citizens, and there's an approval, and maybe you can create an mou, and that is going to be protected by both, and it will not be shared. So when when you have those kinds of information, your

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Jermelina Tupas: travel nation, when they review that they would want to see that. What are you gonna do with the data that you got from us?

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Jermelina Tupas: So even though we did specify that in our pab G, and we're trying to figure out how to do this in terms of the data sovereignty issue the data management by itself.

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Jermelina Tupas: I'm sure the travel nations that you are working with will be interested in. What are you going to do with the data that you got from us? How are you gonna keep it or store it. And how are they going to anonymize the participants, especially those that are going to give their

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Jermelina Tupas: names, lend their names and their knowledge into the work that is being done, especially if you're doing a co-design of co-development, of knowledge that is going to be a very heavy part of their involvement. And so they would want to know, how are you gonna use the materials that we are giving you.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Right I'm moving around in some questions here, and one caught my eye.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: It was stated that the provision applies to lands designated by treaty.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: but many of those lands have since been lost in many cases without tribal agreement, and are not within current tribal boundaries.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: but some still have hunting, fishing, and other rights.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Are these lands considered in the assessment of impact on tribal nations?

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah. So you know, the the thing is, it's not just lands. That the focus needs to be on.

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Caroline Blanco: It could be

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Caroline Blanco: something like, if you think of tribal languages, and if you have a tribal language that is being spoken by a tribal member who's not living on the reservation

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Caroline Blanco: that's still protected under this that's captured under this new requirement. So if there is, let's say.

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Caroline Blanco: subsistence rights hunting rights that

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Caroline Blanco: could occur in an area that is on land that is outside of the reservation that would still be covered, something that is uniquely

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Caroline Blanco: the tribes.

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Caroline Blanco: That's what we're we're really looking for here

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Caroline Blanco: in some cases, if tribal land was lost

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Caroline Blanco: and is no longer part of a treaty, and that just very precise question

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Caroline Blanco: that could be an issue. You know we, we might take the position that.

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Caroline Blanco: you know this is not.

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Caroline Blanco: This is not something that requires tribal permission, tribal nation permission.

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Caroline Blanco: But, importantly, this Papg requirement is not the only authority that we look at when we take a look at proposals. There's the national Historic Preservation Act that takes a look at who might

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Caroline Blanco: have an interest in in lands. We have one astronomy, one right now that takes a look at ancestral lands of a tribe. They don't

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Caroline Blanco: have legal authority, so to speak, legal jurisdiction over that that land where the the array of telescopes is going to be cited. But they do have historical

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Caroline Blanco: ties to that land. So what we do is we consult with them and we work with them. And maybe they provide input into where there are important cultural resources to be avoided and so forth. So again, that's part of the early engagements. Push that we're trying to make. And if they're consulted.

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Caroline Blanco: That's half the battle. Really, people have said to me, wow! Nobody's ever really reached out to us before, thank you. And then they were an absolute joy to work with.

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Caroline Blanco: And in some cases, you know, people are angry, and it's understandable because nobody's reached out to them. Or maybe we have. But at the 11th hour.

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Caroline Blanco: And so there are other ways to try to to capture those concerns, I think, and address them.

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Caroline Blanco: But,

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Caroline Blanco: You know, lands that have been lost, may not be covered under this. Possibly.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And if there are questions, I guess, in a situation given that this is a work in progress. I did put the tribal.engagement@nsf.gov email address into the chat. I would say, capture that to the audience, because

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: this will be a way to definitely help answer questions that will continue to pop up as we navigate a a fairly new landscape.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: the question here about collaborative proposals.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: So

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: in a collaborative work where involving a tribal college. And I'm presuming they mean the ask or means a tribal college. And then a non-tribal college

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: does do both entities. Mark that. Yes, there's work with, you know, tribal nations, and if so, will anything else be required in terms of approval at that? Ca, in this case.

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Caroline Blanco: Germany want to take this one? Yeah.

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Jermelina Tupas: That's a very good question, actually.

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Jermelina Tupas: And I, we know that tribal colleges are chartered by the different kinds of

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Jermelina Tupas: tribal nations, and when it comes to a collaborative between a tribal college and a non tribal college definitely, they will still have to mark that. It will involve

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Jermelina Tupas: the resources and interests of a tribal nation.

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Jermelina Tupas: and they will have to note how many of those are tribal nations? Are they all the the tribal nations that chartered the tribal college or not, because not all of them they're interested in that. They have to still know of that particular group of tribal nations? Are they part of those that charted tribal college?

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Jermelina Tupas: Now, if the travel, if the participation

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Jermelina Tupas: of the tribal college is just minimum just to provide them their resources that they have within the tribal colleges. The Tribal College may not be required to do that, but the Non Tribal College may still be required to have the permission, because they will be the ones working with the tribes.

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Jermelina Tupas: Anyone who is working with the tribe at this point will still require that approval or a letter that says we, we don't need the permission. You can go work with that with this different groups, but that still has to be included in the proposal.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: we have, and I know, Caroline, you have

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: a meeting that you will have to transition to, and we want to give you a chance to at least take a breath before you need to do that. We have someone here asking if we could explain one more time. What interest mean in regards to tribal lands, and I think that would be good for the audience to hear one more time, just to help cement it.

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Caroline Blanco: Sure and and and then I'll I'll try to

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Caroline Blanco: add to that the other

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Caroline Blanco: question that was, what are again tribal resources, or that deals with employees. But anyway, tribal interests, this is something that is unique to the particular tribal nation. So this could be tribal languages. It could be cultural resources. It could be

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Caroline Blanco: practices, particular practices in the way a tribe conducts something. So something that is gonna impact the uniqueness of that tribe. What makes that tribal nation unique?

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Caroline Blanco: And that's what a tribal interest is.

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Caroline Blanco: So if it's a language, you can see how that definitely is something unique to that tribe. That's that's what it is. And and again, I think whenever it gets a little confusing, it's it's helpful to look at what is the purpose behind this whole thing?

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Caroline Blanco: You don't want to speak about or write about or research something that is about the tribe without the tribe.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And and I didn't know if you're thinking about touching on the question that on our list is right above that where someone was asking our employees of tribal nations considered part of those resources.

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah, I haven't. I haven't thought of it ever. I don't think any of us have in those terms, but individuals, if they are individuals. Speaking on behalf of

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Caroline Blanco: a tribe, a tribal nation, then that would be covered by this language. And so, if there are employees, I guess I have to understand a little bit more about the context of this question as a resource, but I think that

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Caroline Blanco: anything that wouldn't.

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Caroline Blanco: If it's, let's say employees of the Department of Natural Resources.

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Caroline Blanco: that's definitely a tribal interest. I'm not sure I would call them a resource necessarily, but certainly it is something that would impact the tribal nation because of what is uniquely the tribal nation. That is their department of natural resources. So in that context, I think it could apply.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: I guess this may not be what the person is asking, but you know, let's say that you are a researcher who's going to do some work on

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: tribal nation lands. But you need, you know, a guide to help you find the animals that you, wanna you know, someone helping you track, for example, and hiring someone from the tribal nation might, who is familiar with the land and and the immediate surroundings might be the most

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: logical thing for you to do.

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah, I I would I would look at more the animals as being a tribal resource than the people.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Person.

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Caroline Blanco: Yeah, but again it's safe to go ahead and start the conversation. I think.

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Jermelina Tupas: I think I would say that if the animals are not within the jurisdictions or the legal properties of the tribe, and they only employ a travel member as a tracker or as a guide.

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Jermelina Tupas: That is really a separate issue, because they're paying someone. And that's that person is not involved in the project itself.

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Jermelina Tupas: If that is the example you're using. Jodi.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: I was just trying to formulate something.

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Jermelina Tupas: Yeah, in the.

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Caroline Blanco: Into.

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Jermelina Tupas: Yeah, but it's interesting. But whenever you do get into those legal properties, that's when you need to get the permission, regardless of who you're using as a tracker or a guide, or anything like that. But if you're using an individual.

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Jermelina Tupas: no identification of which travel nation they belong to, they're not involved in anything. You don't need that approval. You're paying them as a someone that you have hired on a contract basis. So anytime you use

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Jermelina Tupas: the name of a tribal nation

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Jermelina Tupas: that will require approval or permission to use that kind of you know, inclusion of the names, because they want to protect their reputation, whatever it is, they want to make sure that what you say about them is really within. What they believe is true or not, you know. So that's the reason that they would want to see how you're gonna use their names.

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Jermelina Tupas: how you're gonna they're gonna involve the tribal citizens, and how that will come out, as how they're gonna be pictured in that particular project, particularly for a publication. How will we come out.

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Jermelina Tupas: This is again a historical part of their historical trauma, when they have always been depicted negatively. They don't want that to happen again, so they want to make sure that if you're going to involve us.

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Jermelina Tupas: it better be something that we are willing to give to you.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: I think this will be our last, and I don't know that we can say as much about oh, another one just popped in. Hold on a second here.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: if a grant is used to research federal policy.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: okay, that affects all. Nate, 574 native nations. Does any one tribe have an interest that triggers this new consultation policy.

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Caroline Blanco: I think that this

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Caroline Blanco: this quest, the person who has submitted this question gets the prize. I have not

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Caroline Blanco: considered this, and I'd like to give this a bit more thought.

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Caroline Blanco: I can see where it could

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Caroline Blanco: It could require

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Caroline Blanco: approval. But it's it sounds a bit daunting. I don't know the particulars. It's a bit of a broad question.

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Caroline Blanco: and I'm not quite sure

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Caroline Blanco: where it comes into play. I mean, because it's

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Caroline Blanco: it would in theory impact the tribe, but so might many other things as well that we do, and I'm not sure that we would.

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Caroline Blanco: We would require

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Caroline Blanco: all 574 Federally recognized tribes to provide approval

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Caroline Blanco: for that research, I think it would depend a little bit more on on what the nature of that

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Caroline Blanco: policy is that they're looking

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Caroline Blanco: to research.

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Caroline Blanco: It's a little tricky.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: That is a little tricky.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And then I was just going to in here in our last minutes, was just starting to type an answer to the question about how we work with our

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: what guidance will we give reviewers and what I can say?

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: I just give your voice a rest here is that you know we do. Program officers do work with our panelists and our reviewers to make sure that all necessary points

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: documents are addressed within the review process, and because this is a work in process, prop

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: progress. Excuse me, that that instruction is also a work in progress, and so be rest assured that, being aware, we will work with our reviewers to make sure that all the right things are in fact.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: addressed and reviewed. So

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: let's see here, we can pop that one out of here.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And then.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Germline, I saw you answering something, but this will be our last one. Really, truly our last one. How are we sharing this information

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: with

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: Where did it? Where did it was down here? How are? How is Nsf informing tribes about these new rules?

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Jermelina Tupas: Yeah, we? I answered that question because we said, we have done a lot of outreach. We have actually done listening sessions. We have open it up to open comments in the Federal register.

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Jermelina Tupas: So we have sent out information

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Jermelina Tupas: through dear tribal leaders, letters and letting them know that this is going to take effect, and so on and so forth. And we have it in the website.

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Jermelina Tupas: So all this are combined ways of doing it, and we continue to do outreach to different tribal nations. But remember, 574 is not easy to to visit, and they have to know about us first, st and we have to have that bridge. But we're getting there, and we have actually, obtained responses from some of them and say, this is really great, that you're doing this.

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Jermelina Tupas: and they know that if they're going to be approached, that they can charge for it, because we said that they can actually put in the budget

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Jermelina Tupas: any kind of thing that would require the the review of the tribal nation, that it can be charged to the budget so they can pay for anyone who would need to review that.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: So outreach will continue and continue and continue would be my guess. And for those in the audience.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: if you know someone that

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: you know, they're like, Oh, my goodness.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: they need to know more about this. I mean, certainly share things like the email address and the websites that we have dropped so that information can be shared and questions can be asked.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: But we're getting to the top of the hour, and I know folks have additional meetings that they need to go to.

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: And so I think we've got a good break in the questions here to just wanna say thank you to the audience. Thank you to Jermalina and Caroline for being our guest at this special virtual office hour from the biology directorate, and we hope that folks continue to think of great questions and send those in

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: and to the email address that's in the chat and otherwise have a good afternoon. Stay safe in, you know, hot weather or humid weather, or

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Jodie Jawor - Biology Directorate: the crowd strike fallout, or anything like that. And we hope to see folks on our virtual office hours in the future. So have a good afternoon, and thank you very much. Everyone.

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Jermelina Tupas: Thank you.

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Caroline Blanco: Thank you.